What will the future hold for our oceans?
A conversation with Dr. Helen Scales about her new book and the messages she tried to get across about what humans have done to our oceans
I started this post from Cape Cod.
My family and I were on our annual vacation to my wife’s family’s Cape house. The home is small and barely has any updates. The furniture is mismatch and the basement is wet — I poured water out of a bike helmet in the basement. The kitchen is tight, to be kind. It’s hot. Very hot. Damp. Humid. It’s all the things I dislike about the Cape.
But it’s also a place where my children have collected some of their favorite memories. And it brings back memories for me of my family’s beach house on the South Shore of Massachusetts, which was also too small, uncomfortable and always 10 degrees warmer than it should have been with the Atlantic a little more than a football field away and a marsh behind it that brought a beautiful cross breeze. I remember spending days at the beach, even though I hate sand and being sandy, but they were some of the happiest days I can recall. The beach near my family’s home was covered in rocks. The little sand there was brought in and promptly washed away with the first major storm. I’d spend most of my day searching for crabs underneath rocks in the shallow area that formed once the tide receded magically between two large rocks that protected that patch of beach from waves.
Looking back, I know see those little green crabs for what they are: an invasive species commonly called the European Green Crab. They’d moved in and taken over as other wildlife was pushed out or fished out. My mother would tell me about the Russian ships that scooped up the fish off the shore and how she’d see them from the beach. There used to be more fish. More lobsters. I visited the beach a few years ago with my kids and now there is barely a crab or starfish. The snails seem to have dwindled in numbers as well.
The world is changing and not because it is choosing to. Humans have forced it to happen and while we feel the heat with each subsequent heatwave and see more extreme weather, we often forget that the ocean is going through its own changes because of what we’ve done to it. Animals on land are going extinct as their homes are torn down and we can see pictures of how much we’ve destroyed on land, but it’s harder to see (or care) about what is going on under the ocean surface because of how little we know outside of Discovery Channels’ Shark Week or documentary series like Planet Earth.
As I watched my children play on the Cape, which was warmer and even more humid than usual, I couldn’t help but think about Dr. Helen Scales’ What the Wild Sea Can Be: The Future of the World’s Ocean. Scales, a marine biologist, examines how climate change, as well as human activity like fishing, has affected the ocean today. She looks at the history of the oceans and their inhabitants to set the table for what is to come and what has already changed. In it, Scales not only brings the bad news, but she also tries to balance with some of the positive changes we’ve already begun to make to repair the broken ecosystems we’ve dredged and dragged and destroyed in various ways.
One evening, while driving back the beach, my daughter began to talk about sharks. She’s eight and had read somewhere that a lot of sharks species are endangered — she also somehow brought up the fact that there is, in-fact, a shark species called a Lemon Shark. It was a moment where I could pull from my knowledge from reading Scales and a moment where our car of four started to discuss the various species of sharks and the how and why humans have killed them. How could it be? How could this once abundant animal just disappear? What have we done? And could we change it?
In times like those, I think back to being a child at my own beach and being afraid a shark would swim in during high tide to the safe shallows and eat me. What I didn’t know and couldn’t understand is that was probably never going to happen. But today? The Cape is full of sharks. They hunt there. They’ve been forced to. The seals have returned because we’ve tried to fix our mistakes, but the water is changing. The oceans will never be the same. And yet, while they swim closer, there are fewer of them than ever and we seem unbothered by it. Most of us anyways. Not Scales. She loves sharks and wants us to see how important they are to a healthy ocean, alongside kelp forests and coral reefs. What the Wild Sea Can Be is a book that both gave me hope as I talked about sharks and also made me realize that the world is changing and not for the best. And it’s our fault.
This interview has been edited for clarity and length.
Scales it the author The Brilliant Abyss: Exploring the Majestic Hidden Life of the Deep Ocean, and the Looming Threat That Imperils It and writes for National Geographic Magazine and the Guardian. She teaches at Cambridge University.
I've been reading a lot of climate change books lately that make me rethink about it and also make me have horrible nightmares about my children and their future and why did I decide to do that? And I wonder for you writing this book, how you were operating in that space and how you were feeling? There were a lot of points in the book where it's happy and then you're like, well, I got to throw this over here and slow the roll on that happiness, or then it gets bleak and you're like, hold on, I have to make sure you're not horrified. It's a difficult to balance all of it in there. So what kind of headspace were you when you were writing?
I think the word balance is a key one there. I came into the project because I found it really hard to answer a version of a question, which is essentially: are you hopeful for the future of the ocean? It would generally come at the end of a discussion or an interview that I had done about previous work.
For instance, The Brilliant Abyss, which I wrote before this one, often the wrap up question would be, “so are you hopeful for what comes next?” And I'd kind of stumble at that point. So I decided I needed to think a bit more deeply about why I find it hard to know how to feel about what is coming next. I guess, in a way, this book is a long form answer to that question. And the headspace I had coming to it was feeling uncomfortable. Maybe uncomfortable is not the right word, but feeling unsure about being a full on optimist because other people take the approach, we just have to focus on the good news, the bad news is depressing. And they have a point. It is very depressing. It does turn people away. So we're just going to talk about the good news. We're just going to focus on that. We're going to just say, Hey, these are the cool things that are happening.
While I want that to be the message I give out, I feel like I really do think we are have — as communicators, as scientists — a role. We have to tell the truth. We can't ignore that. I think we're getting to the point where we can't ignore the problems. So I wanted to have both in there.
I genuinely think that writing the book, my headspace shifted from one of not really knowing how to deal with it towards really feeling this odd comfort in being able to be both optimistic and pessimistic at the same time and really embracing this idea of pessimism of the intellect and optimism of the will.
Two years ago I would just be like, what are we doing? And I'm still like that, but I guess I just have a stronger sense that I don't have to choose now between talking about one thing or the other or thinking about one thing or the other, and it's absolutely fine to have good days and bad days and days when I just think this is all hopeless and days when I think, no, actually there's some good stuff and we need to celebrate that. I think that's just the reality. Nothing has necessarily changed, but I think the way I think about it has really shifted because I did have this good, strong look at the problem.
We really have to look at the problems. We have to understand why we got here and I don't want to freak everybody out because that is really counterproductive and I don't want to freak myself out. I want to understand where the points of hope lie, but I want to be realistic. I don't want to tell you that everything is going to be okay when it's not, but it could be, right? Not everything. It's a shifting, kind of wobbly mind space. But I do think I've got to a more comforting place. People who are suffering from whatever word you want to use, eco-anxiety, is a common trait now. We've all got to get through this somehow. And I think finding that personal balance is the way forward. At least it is for me. If we ignore the problems, then they're just going to get worse until we can't ignore them anymore, and I think we're kind of there already.
We are most certainly there. We are certainly at the, we can't ignore these anymore, but I think we've been there for a long time and done a good job of ignoring it. It was just in different places in our lives. When did you start this? It feels like a very much a pandemic book as in like, Hey, I have time to finally think about all these ideas. And also I don't have to travel to write this book, but I would otherwise, and now I don't have to, and I can kind of use the research and such.
I mean it was, wait, hang on. When was I writing this? I guess I was writing this 2021, 22. So it was kind of tail end of real restrictions of travel. The travel thing was the other way around. It was more a deliberate decision not to travel, fly rather. I could have at that stage, but I decided I didn't want to. Obviously, I draw on a lot of trips and things I've done in the past, and I talk about that kind of feeling of having done a lot of gallivanting for my work in the past. So I decided not to.
It turns out I've been incredibly consistent in the time between my books. It's three years.
I'm very lucky that I have support from editors that let me kind of get going reasonably quickly on the next one.
So no, I don’t think it was so much extra space. I think it was just the time came when I felt that this was an issue that I could no longer leave to one side and I found an editor who was willing to let me have a crack at it. And so I did.
That's what you always need, just somebody to have some faith. What was your favorite section to write? I have my favorite section of the book, but I'm wondering if it lines up with, and I think it's my favorite because of the way it's written.
Okay, well, don't tell me yet. I can tell the one that was definitely the hardest if you're interested. The hardest, definitely, was the coral reef chapter, although, but different parts of it. The beginning of the coral chapter when I'm talking about my experiences in Belize was fine. I enjoyed that part and I did enjoy looking back at that, not enjoy, but I found that quite satisfying. But the chapter as a whole was incredibly difficult, including the fact that I spoke to various people with wildly different views about reefs. It's really hard to get any kind of consensus on what the future is or what we should be doing. So that was really difficult.
I think the coral chapter is definitely the one that was hardest to find genuine hope in, and I do generally struggle with that. So that was difficult.
I'm trying to run my mind back through the process of writing.
I think in terms of what I got to think about and the places I did look at probably, well actually, I enjoyed it all really. I mean, I loved being able to write about kelp forests. The kelp forest chapter was great.
That's the one I thought you had the most fun with was
Really? Yeah. Okay, there it is.
I was reading it and I was like, I think she really just likes kelp. And I was like, I don't like kelp as a thing. I think all sea plants are disgusting for something.
This is really interesting because I want to know more about what people think about seaweeds and kelp because it's a really hard sell actually, isn't it?
I'll say my favorite chapter was the coral chapter because I've had one, I went to Hawaii once there's one of those bays you can go do snorkeling over a reef and I had a panic attack in the middle of it and I swam out. I get very claustrophobic. I would never scuba dive. That is not on my list of things to ever do. And the idea that you can swim above something that is alive and you are not supposed to touch it and you're so close to it. Then I would see people doing things that you're not supposed to do on top of the amount of space I had was just so stressful to a point I swam and left my wife in the ocean. I had to get out. It gave me a horrible feeling of. I felt like I was intruding on something I shouldn't be intruding on. I didn’t want to touch it. I didn’t want to be there. I wondered, am I wearing the wrong sunscreen? I had all of those thoughts going through my head.
So I found that chapter fascinating and the kelp chapter before it fascinating for that, where it was another extreme. I don't even like touch the bottom of a lake.
I get that because lakes are sort of squidgy and muddy.
I think seaweed and oceans are squidgy and muddy too, in a way. But I also recognize this is vital. I was like, as long as it stays where it needs to stay, it's great where it should be. And if I shouldn't swim there, then don't swim there. Don't go there with your boat. That's how I felt about it. So kelp, what about kelp? What do you love so much about kelp forests?
I think it's partly because forests on land, terrestrial forests, I love the darkness, the mystery, the, what's down the next path? the hidden animals, the creatures that are watching you. And I just love the idea of that translating into the ocean and having an equivalent sort of shadowy creature filled mythical space almost. I don't know if that necessarily comes across in the book and I'm kind of wondering about doing other things, maybe even writing middle grade chapter book set in a kelp forest or something one day. It's some kind of fun thing.
But I get it. I remember not being that excited at all about kelp and seaweed when I was in the UK throughout my childhood and then diving in my teens. But at that point, my mind was fixed on coral reefs and that's where I wanted to get to. That was my ridiculous passion driving me into marine biology and into the ocean. So I had to follow that. Everything else was like, yeah, blah, blah, blah. Even Antarctica, for me, was a boring. It was all about tropical reefs for me.
I've now come back. I've grown up and my interests have broadened. I have genuinely found this sense of joy and wonder and discovery in exploring kelp forests and the wondrous things that you can find there. It's a bit more hidden. I think I like that too. I like that it's not as showy and obvious as a reef. I love reefs and I always will, although they do break my heart now as I've been intimate because of what's happening.
As for you explanation of your experience on reefs, for me, my experience on reefs has always been just, well look at everything, it's just cool. It's all right there and it's just trying to catch sight of as much as you can. Whereas on a kelp forest, you kind of have to look and then you find something that's hidden away and it's like a wonderful surprise. It feels really magical to me. Then you learn about the diversity and how important these places are, and that reinforces that interest. I think knowing that these are overlooked, under-appreciated, and really brilliant ecosystems.
There's been research that trees bring happiness. The important things they do provide oxygen, provide shade from heat for heating. I am thinking that maybe a kelp forest do something similar to you, as well as coral and other things underwater. We never think of the happiness of these animals and these places
The animals not of yourself.
Not of myself. Everything else around them. And you're like, what would it be like if they didn't have it? Never mind the fact that they couldn't live, but what does having this thing bring them? It's something I will probably overthink a lot, but it is something I was aware of when I was reading. It can bring us happiness and it can bring them happiness. It is the opposite of what we often think they are.
I don't see why we can't think about those kinds of ideas with other animals because it feels like an alien concept to talk about happiness or contentment in other non-human species. But we know that's true. We know that they can be miserable when they don't have their basic requirements met, for whatever reason that might be, whether it's captivity or lack of access to stimulating environment, depending on what we're talking about.
I think we could absolutely see that it's not a big stretch to say that an octopus is at home and content to whatever level of octopus. You want to think about it in a rich environment like a kelp forest. It would be really miserable removed from that. Okay, fine, there's good and bad. We're not going to paint some picture of it being this utopia, there are still sharks trying to catch them.
They can hide themselves. Why not? They can actually hide there though, as opposed to if there's not a place to hide.
Exactly. They do. And it's a stimulating place and it's where they belong. I mean, whatever perspective you want to take, it's where these creatures belong and they play these key roles in keeping the whole system going. It's all part of what makes a forest, right? The forest isn't just the trees, it isn't just the kelp, it's everything.
The shark chapter was fascinating. I didn't realize there were so many sharks before. I never thought there were that many predators in a place and how we've treated sharks and the way we think of them. I live in Massachusetts and we talk about you can't go to the beach anymore in parts of it because of sharks and because of seals. So I was thinking about the shark chapter a lot here, and I was wondering if there is more of a shift that can happen even for sharks. The book enlightened me to these animals are vital and we have a lot of misunderstandings about them. I'm wondering if the overarching theme of the book is summed up in that chapter? Was that something that was in your mind when you started writing it?
Absolutely. That chapter was going to be a chapter about overfishing. That’s a key story that needs to be told. So I was looking for characters and I spent a bit of time thinking what character it would be, but sharks came quickly because I love sharks and I love writing about them. I love, as you say, opening people's eyes to what they are now and how they have changed in human experience. I mean it’s really been a few decades that they've become so endangered — and they're so endangered.
That was the idea I think that was driving this chapter: how did we do that? How did we go from super abundant species that were everywhere to just gone? How do we explain that? So those two things. It was obvious to me that this was a great way to do those two things while talking about the problems of industrial fishing the ocean and the scale at which we do that because the sharks really are the indicator of like, oh my God, look what we can do. Look what humans can do, are doing.
We are industrially fishing the ocean and the key group of animals that are suffering from that are ones that most people either don't really care about or don't understand or actually actively dislike. So we don't really care about the impact. So I guess that was just an opportunity to do all those things and I wanted it to be one, a chapter that hit you really hard in the face with this is what's happening, and this is the stuff that we are doing to convert this wild space into this industrial zone and at the same time, I do want to show you how cool and diverse and interesting sharks are.
The way people talk about certain sharks and it sounds similar to rodents and we feel like like they can spawn like a rodent. But it takes forever for them to grow up and procreate. I hadn't thought of that. I just imagined they spawned out of nowhere every year.
The ocean used to be full of them. And I guess the fact that it used to be full of sharks is kind of amazing, really. It's really hard to imagine shifting that view.
I am really fascinated though of the different mindsets. I know I'm not the only one, but I know I'm in a minority of people that when I first went into the ocean I was like, show me a shark. I wanted to see one. That's a thing on my list. I have this amazing entry in my dive log from that trip I did in Belize when I saw the bleaching reefs. And I was like, I finally saw a shark. I was celebrating this encounter I had. It was magic, it was wonderful. I think I need to sit and think quite carefully about why I feel like that. Why do I feel like that? I never saw “Jaws” and that probably helped. I'm not quite sure, but I've just always found them to be these superstar species that I want to see. And I still do. Every single time I see one, I'm just like, Ugh.
I feel that way about Whales. I love Moby Dick. It is probably my favorite book ever. And for sharks, I saw “Jaws,” and am from Massachusetts and found out it was filmed here. And I kind of take the two animals hand in hand almost. To me, seeing a whale in the wild would be crazy. I have done whale watches or whatever here, and it’s like, I get to see a whale, but then I feel really bad that I'm riding on a boat.
I've never seen one underwater and I would love to. It would be incredible to see.
The thing that I think sets this book apart is that you acknowledge that mass extinction has happened multiple times and that the earth recovers with or without the species. So for us, the earth will do whatever it needs to do eventually and something will be here, it may not be us, it may not be the ocean. And I wonder how that made you contextualize this book, especially to choose to open with that.
I'm not an earth scientist, but I've hung out with a lot and I know a lot of geologists and their perspective on the planet is always so different. They have this sense of deep time and perspective that I don't think anyone else has because they spend so long thinking about stuff that was so long ago and that they know is gone. So I think in a way that's sort of been with me for a long time. Because I've hung around with a lot of these people, it made sense and I'm fascinated by those past worlds too. I wanted to open this wider picture of what the oceans have been and kind of draw people in that way and set the scene too. It was a scene setting, but for me it was like, here's how these things you're going to hear about came to be and when they came to be.
It was partly setting scene, but we also need that perspective. I think it's very easy to get wrapped up in the here and now, obviously, because we're here seeing what's happening, trying to figure out what's going to go in the next couple of years and decades and all of this talk about climate is always focused on end century or 2050, and that's nothing, right? That's absolutely nothing compared to the history of the ocean. So I think I wanted just to throw the doors wide open to time and change and the two sides of it: on the one hand, things do recover and they can and they'll be completely different and that's just normal, but on the other hand, what's happening now is really different to what's happened in the past, and that's because of the humans.
This is the first time an extinction has been considered in such a way the other ones just came and went and that's what happened. Whereas here we are thinking about it, so that's different and we're causing it. I don't want it to a give sense of comfort of like, well, it's okay that we're doing this, it's all going to be all right in the end. The idea I want to get across is that we are ruining the ocean and the planet and it's ruining us and our own ability to exist in our own enjoyment of existing. So that's why it needs to be fixed now, but for the planet it's less important. Unless we nuke the heck out of the entire globe, which I really hope we don't, something will survive. Even after 90 ercent species have been wiped out in the past, something hangs on and it takes a new direction, so it should continue right up until the time the earth ends up getting sucked into the sun.
That's a fair. I wasn't saying it was giving hope, but I think it should give people pause that we are destroying this fast and this thing will be here, whether you're here or not, and whether the species is here.
And what you decide to do has to do that and we are planet shaping forces on par with all of these incredibly powerful things that have happened in the past. Again, I hope that makes people sit up and go, really? Yeah, we are like more than equaling what wiped out the dinosaurs and the great dying 250 million years ago when nearly everything was gone. We are on that scale and that's crazy.